City Council Approves Streetcar Concept

Makes total sense!

"Just saying that the most ideal mode of mass transit N/S is Rail."

that's going to be Sound Transit, which all these streetcar lines will ultimately link up with downtown.

a university/ballard line would be able to connect to sound transit at the university, after the line gets that far north.

the problem is that no one knows how long that will take, so it makes sense to only build the downtown connecting lines for now, since they'll be able to connect to Sound Transit rail as soon as they are complete.

That strength cannot be disputed, but I wasn't reasoning a Rail for N/S to be identical to the Streetcars. Just saying that the most ideal mode of mass transit N/S is Rail.

Now, the SF cars use a cable system to get up and and down the hills, which would be needed to get up the major grade between Ballard and Fremont. And yes, there are low density areas but I'm sure the solution lies with creating another line off of the Green Line around 36th in Fremont and bringing it up to the zoo and over to the UDist to join the Purple Line at 50th.

Then you have a nice, potential loop, practically limiting density growth for the next decade, assuming of course there would be some northward linkage between the Purple and Yellow Line to the Red Line. Like turning the yellow line up Denny considering the Purple Line services the same area (redundant much?)

the 44/43 route from U district to ballard would be the next most obvious place to put in a street car, after building the current proposals.

there's some problems you'd run into with that, though.

first of all, that's a long route. probably longer than any of the proposed routes.

secondly, it runs through low density stretches all along NW market. you could have a streetcar act like an express there, but part of the advantage of streetcars is that they can make local stops more quickly and easily than buses, since they don't pull in and out of traffic.

finally, i'm not sure how a streetcar would handle the grade at NW market. SF metro muni streetcars, for example, tend to go through tunnels when they encounter such a grade, so there maybe be problems with doing so, particularly at the speed traffic moves at along NW market.

by the way, light rail or monorail aren't terrific choices for N/W along the proposed streetcar routes, because they require elevated platforms or bulky stations for boarding, and dedicated rights of way that are nearly impossible to secure in high density areas. they also aren't very good at making repeated local stops.

again, a strength of a streetcar is that it can make repeated local stops without be slowed as much as a bus.

Yes we could.

Now, will we? Hmmm.

if we have street cars covering current bus routes that radiate to/from downtown, could we not then take those buses and have them run more east/west routes?

Grid,

At first, I was certain you meant "best tool at our disposal," because I would argue have argued monorail or lightrail would be better. Although, after further thought, I think you may be spot on.

Rails for N/S but E/W really should be street cars. Cheaper for the hills and north of the canals just aren't dense enough to warrant anything more than a street car to link them.

But it needs to happen. Hell, the 44/43 route from Ballard to Downtown through Montlake is a great route... just not for a bus.

Now, to only figure out how to retrofit 45th for the journey.

"Outside of the Park, there are crosstown roads everywhere (and some in the Park as well"

well, if you are saying that manhattan = nyc, i'd agree. otherwise there are many choke points when trying to get to and from the eastern burroughs by street level transit.

so, why is it difficult to run buses between montlake and fremont, even though your drive is flat? if your drive is flat, you are probably taking northlake by car. my wife used to make a very similar commute from north queen anne to ravenna, and the problem with running buses or streetcars along that kind of route is that there's simply not enough density to support very many buses pushing through there. maybe if more people wanted to take the bus to the marinas to hop on their speedboats or yachts, there'd be more incentive to run buses through northlake.

so buses go through the next closest E/W corridor, which is 40th street. unfortunately 40th street is "above" fremont, north of the aurora avenue bridge, due to the hill. this complicates things further. aurora avenue itself also serves as a general impediment to E/W traffic on 40th street and higher.

the difficulty in getting from montlake to fremont by bus is due more to density and geography than a failure in planning.



at any rate, that has little to do with the streetcars replacing any of the lines running between and along higher density corridors. if you perform an important task repeatedly, it makes sense to use the best tool possible to perform that task. streetcars are the best tool for running these high density, high traffic routes, and spurring higher density development and increased ridership along those routes.

[grid] Sorry, I don't buy it. When I commute from Montlake to Fremont, my hybrid gets its absolute best mileage in the city - it's dead flat, and I can make the trip with very few stops. If I want to take a bus, eh fugettaboutit. Given that I-5 is one small part of a EW journey in Seattle, I don't see what tearing it down would accomplish, regardless.

As far as NYC goes, you don't need to pave anything to make EW work better, just remove the NS bias. Outside of the Park, there are crosstown roads everywhere (and some in the Park as well) They just don't have any priority in the system. Kinda like Seattle, as I was saying.

"The best streetcars can offer is institutionalizing mistakes made in laying out the bus routes?"

the current bus routes aren't mistakes. getting across town is difficult because lake union is longer north to south than it is east to west, downtown is built on a slope and the I5 runs north/south.

short of tearing down I5, getting crosstown will always be a drag, no matter the conveyance.

this is in the same way that short of paving central park and the east river, moving E/W in NYC will always be a drag relative to N/S.

On the one hand, an easier way to Columbia City would be my dream come true, however, with that would come all the folks that ruin cool areas like Columbia City.

Columbia City: this City's best lil' secret.

if we ask what streetcars bring to the table, it is better and increased transit use, not radically new and different routes.

Sorry, I just don't get this. The best streetcars can offer is institutionalizing mistakes made in laying out the bus routes? It's not so radical to try to get across town in a reasonable amount of time. We're just like NYC in that respect.

streetcars are a good idea. i lived in toronto for 6 years, where the street cars are beloved, even though they were ancient and far too large and heavy.

at some point you need to take a look at the popular bus routes and ask whether they should be more peaceful, prominent and popular than they already are. streetcars are more gentle and quiet to ride on, easier for casual transit users to find and use, and end up carrying more people than a comparable bus line would.

if we ask what streetcars bring to the table, it is better and increased transit use, not radically new and different routes.

I'm with Troy. These proposed routes just duplicate what are already the fastest bus routes in the city. What we need are fast ways ACROSS TOWN. Ballard to U-District and West Seattle to Columbia City, dammit.

God, I can't wait to try that crazy thing up North.

That's exactly why I prefer the ski-gondola approach from hill to hill, bilco. Bridge schmidge. When you go gondola, you never go back.

But wait, where's my U-to-Ballard line? Replace the fucking 43/44 with a street car.... please!

We're not getting trains, so we may as well get street cars.

What gets me is that we just completed a n-year, n-million dollar revamp of the Fremont bridge and reconfiguring of the traffic flow in ye olde Fremont.

Time to dig it all up and start afresh - shades of the bus tunnel debacle. And keep in mind that the Fremont bridge is frequently touted as 'the most active drawbridge in the country'. Who knows if that's true or not, but it sure opens frequently. Just wait for the streetcar backups.

Buses aren't the only answer--streetcars are great. A multi-pronged approach is the right answer, not just an over-reliance on one form of transit. This is exactly the right move--the only thing is, they should have started with some of these lines rather than giving a big old prezzie to Paul Allen.