Downtown Shooting and the Scary Bus Stops

@26,

Perhaps someone should explain the concept of citizenship, community, and responsibility but if there are people in your community dealing drugs, loitering, presenting a threat (look at video of gang of youths beating the shit out of the guy who picked up the purse), you should not just mind your own business and find a solution. As for me, as a proud tax-paying citizen of this great city, I don't think I have to keep my head down like a coward when I walk DT just so that I'm not at risk of getting a beat down. Perhaps we should also mind our own business when it comes to Darfur or any other problems in our world.

@25

I do walk dt and see who's there doing drugs and loitering and they're minding their own business and dealing with one another, not bothering me. I saw the PI and Jamison said Ruffians. I realize that's a stretch. For the record, no one can give you a dirty stare if you're not looking at them. Mind your own business!

@ 24,

The PI just caught on with an opinion from Jamison here:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/326615_robert07.html

I don't think Dan is making a sweeping generalization about race but acknowledging that the "thugs" hanging around Pike/Pine area are by and large African-American. Let's see... walk down the street, photograph the corners, count the number of "shady" people, calculate the percentage of each ethnicity and you'll find that unfortunately, African American youths and drug dealers are the largest proportion of those who are making the area unsafe.

I don't care about drug dealers, they're there to make money, it's the unsupervised youth who hang out and bother people, give them dirty stares, and threaten them with bodily harm that has me worried.

As comments in the PI point out, a stronger police presence and perhaps a citizen's task force is needed to clean up that area. Otherwise, that area will continue to rot.

@ Dan

You think it's valuable to seek out more stay where you belong or go back to where you came from comments? I find your entire argument complete horseshit for lack of a better word.

READ: A black person is not a synonym for a scary person.

I am not afraid to directly acknowledge race, however making sweeping generalizations about a race and attributing their presence to an entire bus stop and area being “scary” is racist.

I don’t think you “seemingly” blamed black people for the bus stop being scary, you did, but I guess you say what you need to say to make yourself feel better at night.

For the record, there are scary black people and white people in the area; crackheads alike! For one, white drug dealers from the eastside might consider not bringing the crack over!

At the time I was annoyed with what I perceive as a tendency to dance around race by using code words like "scary," so I put the word "black" in the commenter's mouth, even if that's not what the commenter actually intended (they said it's not above). I'm not sure what I was hoping to accomplish by doing that. I don't think I was consciously fishing for "stay where you belong" comments, but I do think that kind of comment is valuable because it's good to know that that kind of attitude exists in the community. It's distressing, and, yeah, infuriating, and it's not necessarily going to come into the light with everyone afraid to directly acknowledge race.

I understand if you're pissed off that I seemingly blamed the problems of that area on black people, but I was trying to clarify a position that I don't necessarily share, but that I do believe exists.

I'd love a Seattlest reply @ 20

I guess the bus stops downtown don't qualify as "scary" by yr definition (sounds like the 9/11 definition of someone having to be physically hurt), but I def feel less safe at them than I did five or 10 years ago. There are more sketchy looking people and who knows if they'll suddenly go off on you? I'm usually left alone, but I won't take my parents on the bus in the evenings anymore, as I'm afraid that will make us look too vulnerable. I get on a bus at 4th & Pike in the eves, I have a night job, and could actually work as late as I want, but I don't like being out much past 9 pm, so I actually cut back on my work hours because of the creepy looking folks at the bus stop. I have noticed the 6th & Pike stop has a very different vibe though. I get on the earlier stop to have a better chance getting a seat.

It saddens me that every time I read the blog comments under these types of post lately, which coerce the racist comments by always highlighting in the post that the problem is ultimately the fault of black people and it is also their fault that crime exist in Seattle and that the downtown Pike/Pine corridor is scary. All of the go back to here/there comments are infuriating. Not in my back yard niggers! Go away coon. Whites only! I feel like Seattle is 1960’s Jim Crow Mississippi some days when I read comments on the Slog, Seattle Weekly blog and now Seattlest! Of course no one says these things aloud, only passive aggressively behind the safety of an anonymous blog avatar.

"Seattlest usually goes to the stops south of, say, Marion, though. A little farther north and the scene changes somewhat (read: there are black people)"

Are you saying Seattlest that there are no black people at bus stops South of Marion? All black people are concentrated at bus stops North of Marion reeking havoc and making it uncomfortable for Yuppie white people to make it home safely and quietly? How utopian. I happen to catch a bus on 2nd and Marion everyday and there are ample black people there waiting patiently for the bus in peace and harmony with their racist white counterparts not causing trouble. The generalization and the denigration of the black community in Seattle has got to stop! This is complete overt racism. Institutionalized racism is alive and well too; see the George Patterson case.

I mainly take issue with the post force feeding the case that it is the fault of the black people with the quote above. Was the “(read: there are black people)” really necessary. Are you that blatantly racist? I hope I am reading into this wrong.

They should do something about that 3rd/2nd - Pike/Pine cooridor. There's alway shady-ass people hanging out and one time my girlfriend and I were walking down there and 15-20 kids started getting in a fist fight and got within a few feet of us innocent bystanders. There were no police officers anywhere and there were stupid baby mamas (with babies in strollers) in the fight as well. Get these ghetto ass kids back to where they belong or throw them in juvi. Thank god for gentrification.

I was pretty traumatized while waiting for the 11 to go to Madison Park at the Pike and 4th bus stop. This was commute time in the afternoon but there was lots of shady characters walking around, whispering to each other, searching through the trash, making out, yelling across the street, smelling, etc. I feel bad generalizing about "these shady people" but I inherently felt unsafe. This is in the heart of downtown. Waiting nearly 25 minutes for the bus (Metro frequency still sucks) I never saw a cop car or foot cops. I still don't understand the lack of beat cops in Seattle.

A drunk teenager puked on a bus I was riding a couple of weeks ago. Now that was scary.

@15: I love love love the coining of "de-skeeve." That brings tears of joy to my eyes.

As the author of the "scary" comment that inspired this discussion, I would like to clarify and expand my comments:

1. By "scary", I most certainly did not mean to imply anything about race or ethnicity. There is a true rainbow of skeevy people at those bus stops.



2. By "scary" I did mean that there are people that are any combination of: drunk, high, dealing drugs, threatening others, fighting, passing out, pooping on the sidewalk, vomiting, peeing, panhandling, and/or having heated discussions with themselves. Not to mention the brandishing of weapons and use thereof.

3. In the interest of full disclosure, I did grow up in Bellevue. I have lived and taken the bus in the city of Seattle for over five years. I have also spent a considerable amount of time in big cities and would rather wait at any DC Metro station rather than the 3rd & Pine bus stops.

4. When the bus tunnel was open, waiting at the Westlake tunnel station was a completely different experience than the 3rd & Pine bus stops. If the city and county want people to take mass transit, the more comfortable they can make the waiting experience, the less people will revert to their cars. Would your mom rather experience the stress and expense of driving in rush hour traffic than experience trying not to get spit on, yelled at, or shot while waiting for the bus?

5. My main point was actually that if the City of Seattle has enough police to line up along 3rd waiting to hand out traffic tickets, maybe they could have a few of them walking through the bus stops. It would make me feel safer and less likely to have to invade the personal space of "tall, athletic guys" in order to get the skeevy people to leave me alone.

6. The problems at these bus stops are a great example of why the City of Seattle needs to make some serious investments in social services to de-skeeve people, help them find something to do other than hang out at the bus stop, and encourage creative ways of problem solving that do not involve the use of firearms.

after being told, under no uncertain terms that if I DID help her I'd be shot (the kid at the bus stop with the gun told me this) I begged him to either let me help her, or help her himself.

I guess I could call the cops, but what am I going to say? 40 young black kids? That's about as good a description as I could have given (at that moment, I was a bit amped up as you can imagine)

The gang squad knows who they are.

I see them talk to them and address them by name.

I have to live here.

If I am outed as a rat I am a dead man.

I just don't want to be shot and every day when I come home and my tv and computer are still here, I rejoice.

I pay attention to the crime reports involving 3rd as I catch the bus there. Most of the violent crimes are homeless on homeless or young idiot from Kent vs. young idiot from Auburn. Even though the skeezy people leave me alone, I still am disturbed about the possibility of a stray bullet or random act. After the last middle-of-the-street brawl, I turned around and there were two women standing within inches of me (tall, athletic guy). It is not a great sign when you have to seek out the protection of a stranger when you are just trying to get home. I admire them, they put up with this and the crude catcalls when some women at work will not walk to their cars unescorted. However, I imagine they may be reconsidering their method of commuting.

Sure, this all comes with living in a city. I just wish they had cameras, more bike cops, or some sign they are at least trying to do something about the problem. It is not as if this is a new issue.

Yes, the gang violence is an issue -- but like guest @ 3, it's the random, unpredictable nature of these encounters (not the shooting, but my personal experience) which is most disturbing. I work on 3rd and Pike, and my company is moving in a couple of months because it is too dangerous. After the shooting last night, my co-worker was attacked by a total stranger (not a gang kid, but an able-bodied 40something) who tried to punch him. Fortunately, someone else had pepper spray and managed to disable the guy, but he's still out there, liable to punch someone else just because he feels like it.

Incidentally, when my co-worker called 911, the dispatcher told him that, because he wasn't physically injured, they would not send any police to the scene.

This has been our collective experience over the past several years -- SPD will not respond to threats of violence or thwarted attacks until someone actually gets hurt.

Another co-worker is, unfortunately in this case, blond and stunning, and the leering she endures (or the guys who actually grab her elbow and start pulling on her as she walks from the bus to our office) is not something that she, or any of us, should have to tolerate. When it's not safe to wear a skirt to work, something is very wrong.

I am by no means forgiving those actions. However, it doesn't sound like those CD kids were targeting random passers-by. The nature of the gang issue does have an effect on violence in our neighborhoods, but for the most part, it seems gangs want no business with non-gang members. As a community member, it is your responsibility to report an altercation involving 40+ people, or someone brandishing a weapon to the police. As an individual, it is your responsibility to be aware of your surroundings and avoid trouble whenever possible. There's no pride in bragging about "the hood" while simultaneously failing to try to make it better and keep yourself safe.

Hey Saxtor... learn how to read, I never said Cali, I never said Starbucks, and I live right downtown... My point is offer a reason for people with money to head further west than 4th and all the scum will eventually be pushed out.

But really when you think about it, this is Seattle, a couple of shootings, a couple of fights and everybody gets all up in arms... it really isn't all THAT bad, I'm just tired of the "stupid" in general.

You should try getting on the bus at 28th and Jackson. Last week I saw;

a) 20 girls literally kick the shit out of another girl while 20 "men" watched.(right when I was deciding to risk my life to help her she got away, thank god.)

b) the gang squad sweep in and search every black kid within 100 meters.

c) a kid at the bus stop with a gun clearly showing in the waist of his shorts (they were so baggy it was amazing it stayed there)

so, you want violence come to the "real" hood.

CD baby!

The kids who hang out in that stretch of 3rd are more annoying than scary. I used to wait for my bus there around 9pm at night, and was harassed constantly. Even years later, I will catch my bus at a different block, even during rush hour, just to avoid being irritated.

Seattle at any time of night, even Pioneer Square, feels a lot more safe than most major cities I've lived in or visited (I grew up by NYC). That said, I get tired of seeing people openly dealing crack at 3rd and Pine and have sometimes felt a bit nervous. Everyone knows it's going on--the cops MUST know. Why don't they bother to do anything about it? On top of it I've witnessed a lot of violent fist fights between the street drunks/crack heads. I worry about getting caught in the middle of something I didn't even start.

I use the bus stops downtown fairly regularly and I'd say that they're really just NASTY more than scary.

I'm usually not worried about things like assault (helps that I'm a big guy).

But I do worry about getting fucking COOTIES. There are just some dirty, sick-looking people at the stops and on the bus for that matter.

I take my 18-month old son on the bus sometimes and I just worry that he'll get hacked on by some TB-looking mofo.

You know - it's just unpleasant. I live IN the city, not in a 'burb and I'm a big fan of mass transit.

But some of the downtown bus stops and buses are just unpleasant. Like or not, that matters. It would be better if the environment was cleaner and there were fewer crackheads around.

I grew up in a small town, and live in a small town. I'm not sheltered, due to extensive travel and a general exposure to "the real world." I was never concerned when I took a job in Belltown (immediately adjacent to 2 or 3 of Nickels' "troublesome" clubs), but reserved caution that I'd see some weird stuff, maybe even have something happen to me, and adjusted my level of awareness appropriately.

A year and a half later, some crazy shot up the Jewish Federation building, a nutjob lit some tourists ablaze, a handful of stabbings, a few police mishaps (both directed toward and away from the police), and a couple shootings in the downtown/Belltown area, yesterday's being the most recent, none of them "random." And with all of that, I feel downtown to be an incredibly safe place. I've relaxed my guard since I first started working. I sometimes find myself walking alone through groups of crackheads and thugs, sometimes at 3 or 4am. My observation is, people in Seattle, both good and "bad" keep to themselves. The Jewish building shooting was targeted, the police activity was isolated, and yesterday's shooting was a dose of street justice. I'm not justifying any of it, but it just seems to come along with living in a major city.

I catch the bus at 4th and Union, and on my way there pass by "the underpass", walk past Steinbrueck park, up 2nd and Pike and right past the Walgreens of Doom. The most I'll get is a "you lookin'?" to which I kindly respond "no thanks" in the same tone as I do anyone else vying for my money, firm but friendly. I may pass by someone acting aggressively, but always toward someone other than myself, which is my cue to walk a bit faster, and watch my back. I stay aware of who is walking at the same pace behind me, and make sure my belongings are close by. But never am I afraid. Instead, I'm glad I'm in the community, enjoying the quasi-diversity Seattle has to offer.

As for the "close the crappy stores and open a Starbucks" and "send 'em back to Cali" guy...who said you could cross the floating bridge?!

I haven't seen a lot of "random acts of violence" in that area, and I wind up there at all hours of the day. Ironically, it's one of those areas that's sketchier during the day, wiht loitering punks, than at 2 am. Not scary, but definitely nowhere you like going.

It's not the people themselves who are scary, it's their apparently random acts of violence that put me on edge as a resident of downtown (at the bus stop or otherwise). Personally I'm really sick and tired of the "stupid" that hangs out downtown and give them absolutely no slack what so ever. I'm an upper-middle class white male, no wife, no kids, and no you can NOT have my money, and the drugs I do are WAY better than yours, so no I'm not interested, fuck you very much. The crack heads really need to die off and the drug dealers/gang bangers (if you can call them that in Seattle) need to go back south. Close all the shitty stores from 1st and Pike/Pine to 3rd, bring in something that will attract people with class and screw the damned.

If someone is actually scaring you, maybe you ought to grab a cop. If they just happen to be standing around looking shady, they probably have no more interest in hassling you than you do in hassling them. Live and let live, people.

I've never felt the stops on 3rd/Pine are scary. Occasionally skeevy, but not scary. Once I felt a little nervous waiting at the southmost stop on 3rd (by Pioneer Square) and probably would not wait at that stop alone at night, but for the most part they're just normal city bus stops. I grew up in the Philly/NYC area though, so Seattle stops don't seem very scary to me.