Seattlest: Howdy, Partner

TroyJMorris

Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:13:23 -0800

Well, as with most movements, feminism has changed the way most people interact and think. Men with men and children as well. The "destruction" or "degredation" of family and marriage is mostly due to the fact that the rules of the game have changed. The way people from every spectrum of life and every gambit of relationships interact has changed, yet most people go into and about marriages the same as it ever was. Mistake numero uno.

Kim Ruehl

Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:44:07 -0800

Ah, well that makes a lot more sense. Maybe I just misread your comment :) I think there are a lot of really interesting (and wonderful) ways that feminism has changed relationships between men and women, and between women and their children (and between women, for that matter). I also agree that the ways the culture of marriage have changed are huge and so important. It would be so much more beneficial to study that and learn how to guide it rather than discount it as having been "destroyed," searching for a scapegoat to take the flak for the "destruction" of the institution of marriage. But it is so much easier to fear change and take it out on someone else, rather than face it head on with open arms. I think we've come so far in the ten years since Ellen had to have a parental advisory note on her sitcom because she was holding hands with a woman on television. Then again, I'm obviously preaching to the choir.

TroyJMorris

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:04:55 -0800

No. I must have misrepresented her lecture. It was actually quite good. She never claimed they happened at the same time. Not at all. And it she never used the term "granting" women rights. That was a tounge-and-cheek jab at the "Right Wing." Essentially, what she was saying was that when the roles changed in marriage to an equal relationship, that the institution of marriage weakened. Which is true. But she was quick to add and repeat that while it weakened the instituation. Both the equality and the "true love" alterations was a great improvement to the relationship. Her basic point was that marriage has changed so much over the last 200 years, more than it has in the millenniums before, that we have to adapt our view of the institution and how we interact with marriage and within marriage. Including the primitive mindset of marriage being between man and woman. Hell, when people started marrying for love, everyone freaked out saying that it would ruin society and marriage. That was her point, and mine. Things change. Marriage hasn't always been the way we know it now, and has actually changed quite a bit over a relatively short period of time. Here's the link and I truly encourage people who are interested to listen. I don't really do it much justice. That's the problem of trying to listen to NPR while riding the 174. http://kuow.org/defaultProgram.asp?ID=13046

Kim Ruehl

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:05:11 -0800

I love the argument that marriage has degraded because of the feminist movement and, consequently, men "granting" women rights. Brilliant. What's funnier is that a lecturer would mention the "granting" of women's rights and the evolution of the concept of "romantic love" (and marriage because of it) as if they happened around the same time. That's almost as silly as claiming marriage was created by the church.

TroyJMorris

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:50:14 -0800

"It can be devastating enough to deal with tragedy and the loss of your partner without then also having to deal with an onslaught of homophobia in the same breath." - Wait.... Gay people love each other?! Where was I during all of this? I thought all the gays did was destroy society. You know, since the divorce rate was higher in the 1950's and 1960's than in the 1990's. The whole "degradation of society and marriage" line is such bullshit. I heard an interesting lecture on NPR a few weeks back down in Forest Grove, OR (there's that darn 4.5 MM state again). It was about how marriage actually deteriorated more when two things happened, 1) we "gave" women rights and 2) when we started encourage marriage for love. Look: Divorce is going to be rampant when people who are stupid marry. I, personally, don't really believe most people should ever marry; enter into a long term "love-contract" (essentially like marriage but without the whole "forever" deal), yes. But life-long? So many things can change. And interesting little tid bit to the Bible-thumping Conservatives: Guess where the highest rate of pre-marital teen pregnancy is? The Bible Belt. And most of those lil' ladies is white.